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Subject: Flashlife   V3 #12
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From: Carl Rigney (moderator) <flashlife-request@kpc.com>


Flashlife  Tue, 1 Jun, 1993   Volume 3 : Issue 12

Today's topics:

  Fixing Shadowrun Magic (Trip)
  Re: Flechette ammo (Laurence Brothers)
  Aikido & SRII MA (William L Schongar)
  Re: Martial Arts in Shadowrun II (ual1)
  Re: Martial Arts in Shadowrun II (Andrew David Weiland)

FTP archive is on ftp.kpc.com:/pub/list/flashlife.

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Date: Mon, 10 May 93 19:07:43 -0700
From: trip@netcom.com (Trip)
Subject: Fixing Shadowrun Magic

Yet Another Fix For ShadowRun Magic

The ShadowRun rules contain many many references to magic being a
property of nature and living things and not of machines. A logical
extension of this is that magic only affects living things and only in
'natural' ways.

All those annoying D&D spells that produce fireballs, gouts of acid,
and microwave death beams go away. Levitation and telekinesis type
effects are no longer possible. Illusions only work on living things.
Most sensory spells still work; telepathy/aura reading is prefectly
appropriate, and if you can go someplace astrally and look at it, you
should be able to send a spell there to look. Infravision (excuse me,
*thermographic* vision) spells are out, but that's fine because
biological infravision is pretty bogus anyway. Hyperdilating the pupils
works for night vision, but don't get flashed. Magical healing works,
but should probably turn physical damage into mental damage, because it
uses up so much energy. Forcefield spells are right out; 'armor' spells
turn into berserker spells that let the user keep going until he dies,
but don't prevent death.

This makes cybered people a lot more dangerous against mages: sure, a
mage can paralyze someone, but if that gun is in a cyber hand
controlled by skillwires, the trigger is probably going to get pulled
anyway. Similarly, heart-attack spells are notoriously ineffective
against artificial hearts. Most illusions will work on people with
cybersenses, though.

Shamans still get to conjure spirits; most of the cool spirit powers
(eg, Guard, Accident, Obscure, Confuse) can work without having to
directly affect the physical world. Hermetic mages have a bit more of a
problem in that elementals are pretty physical. If you want
consistency, you could give hermetic mages something else to conjure,
like ghosts or immaterial Cthulhoid horrors. Another option is to let
hermetic mages conjure elementals that affect the physical world, but
with the usual requirements for expensive materials and time. This lets
hermetic mages feel superior because their magic can do what shamanic
magic can't, and lets shamans feel superior because hermetic magic is
practically technology.

If you want to restrict conjuring even more, require a separate
conjuring skill for each broad class of entity, which can be
concentrated/specialized for subcategories.  Instead of Conjure [any
spirit] 4 or Conjure [any elemental] 5, it's Conjure Urban Spirits
2/Hearth Spirits 4/Bordellos 6, or Conjure Earth Elementals 3/Concrete
5/Roads 7. Or whatever.

None of this has been playtested, so I'd be interested to hear the
results if anyone tries it.

	[ I really like the idea that magic spells only affect living
	  things, anyone care to give it a try and report back? --CDR]


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Date: Tue, 27 Apr 93 08:13:15 EDT
From: Laurence Brothers <quasar@ctt.bellcore.com>
Subject: Re: Flechette ammo

It is evident* to me that flechette ammo would be stopped unusually well
by ballistic armor. Flechette ammo is designed for maximum damage to
flesh, like a bunch of stabilized shotgun pellets, and hence, ballistic
armor should have the 2x bonus. Each flechette is quite light compared
to a slug (or a depleted uranium core :-) and would tend to get stopped
by any resistant surface, hence the similar bonus for impact armor.

-Laurence

*"evident" to me as one completely unlettered in military matters; however
I think common sense should apply here (though that may be contrary
to the spirit of Shadowrun (tm) rules? :-)



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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1993 10:39:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: William L Schongar <tracker@wpi.WPI.EDU>
Subject: Aikido & SRII MA

Just some generic comments...

> Throw: One damage level less but net successes means the target
> is on the ground.

I think this is an interesting idea, but I think the ability to have
only one net success and floor someone is a bit too much. A few
generic variations occurred to me, but they'd be more work in
computing it:
	1) Net successes x (2 or 3, depending on attacker's str) =
	   opponents target number for quickness test to avoid throw
	   (but not damage). Success = still standing, but an increase
	   to target numbers due to being halfway whipped around.
	   # of successes necessary = attacker's skill. This would
	   mean that it's nigh impossible to dodge out of a really
	   good throw.

	2) Net successes >= (.5 x opponents best unarmed combat
	   skill), then throw works. Damage applies with any
	   successes.

I had though of a few others, but they've fled. I'm just trying to
take into account the fact that someone who is very agile or
well-trained can compensate for being thrown or at least work against
it. Granted, realism isn't always the first goal..

> Hold: One damage level less (or at the attacker's option, two) but
> the target must roll unarmed combat vs. twice the number of net successes
> to break free.  (Or perhaps it should be an unarmed combat vs. unarmed
> combat resisted test with the holder getting -1 per original success and the
> attacker getting +1.)

I think this is good, but think the option for using a straight Str
roll at no penalty (for not being a skill) would be appropriate. You
may have a troll who just shoots a lot, but try holding a str 7 troll
in a body lock when you're str 4..  maybe a (str - 1 or 2) roll, to
take into account that it isn't a skill.. something like that.

> Killing Strike: One damage level less and/or half power, but does physical
> instead of stun damage.  (Not appropriate for Aikido, mind you.)

Isn't this a Phys adept power? Not that I'm objecting to it, but
someone could go out and buy plastic bone lacing, or more, and get the
same effect, without learning the discipline..

> The other part to simulating Aikido is that you can concentrate in it
> for the purposes of defense, so for example you'd have
> Unarmed Combat 3, Aikido 5, and roll 5 dice on defense but only 3 dice
> when attacking.  (More properly, you'd never attack.)

Or even go so far as to add 1 die to combat pool for defensive
purposes in addition to the 3/5 idea... 

Interesting idea, though...

-Tracker



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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 18:39:17 -0400
From: ual1@crux2.cit.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Martial Arts in Shadowrun II

> Throw: One damage level less but net successes means the target
> is on the ground.

Depending on the Aikidoki's skill level, you can also factor in a
stun--say, if you get X number of succeses more than the defenders
unarmed combat, then he did not know how to role out of the throw,
which becomes more likely the greater the disparity between the
attacker and the defender--hell, why not even make it real damage at
((8 - lvl of UAC)/4).
while we're at it. (have you ever been tossed by a pissed black belt)?

> Hold: One damage level less (or at the attacker's option, two) but
> the target must roll unarmed combat vs. twice the number of net successes
> to break free.  (Or perhaps it should be an unarmed combat vs. unarmed
> combat resisted test with the holder getting -1 per original success and the
> attacker getting +1.)

UAC(defender) vs UAC(attacker)+.5*number of attackers succeses
	Reasons:
1. Combat oriented holds do not (ideally) depend much on the strenth
of the attacker/defender, just on the skill levels of those involved.
2.  There is no hold that cannot be reversed (during it's application)
by someone who knows what is going on.  This, however, is harder to do

A further thought: there are many different kinds of holds that work
on various parts of the body.  You can call a hold for a specific part
of the body, but you suffer a penalty for doing so, depending on what
part you want to lock up.  It is relatively easy to go for arm or leg locks
harder to go for a head lock...  In general assign numbers to body
zones  (1-10 or something) and a random role hould determine what you
lock up, reflecting the chaotic nature of combat.
	While head locks can be most powerful (1 pt stun cumulative
per round and an option to break the guys neck [UAC vs Body+UAC]) it
uses both of your hands up and leaves you pretty much a sitting duck
for your typical wired sam.  There are myriad arm, wrost finger and
other joint locks that give you more ability to move.  Of course if
you opt to use both hands you can increase th power lvl of the attack,
or damage, or soething like thatcuz this way you bring more leverage
to bear.

> Killing Strike: One damage level less and/or half power, but does physical
> instead of stun damage.  (Not appropriate for Aikido, mind you.)

Aikido has strikes. They are called atemi.

> The other part to simulating Aikido is that you can concentrate in it
> for the purposes of defense, so for example you'd have
> Unarmed Combat 3, Aikido 5, and roll 5 dice on defense but only 3 dice
> when attacking.  (More properly, you'd never attack.)
> Comments?

How about not allowing for attack with Aikido at all (or only at 1/2
skill lvl) but allowing each unarmed defense to count as a possible
attack.  Emphasis here would be on throws and atemi. Also consider  an
option of throwing people into each other as they attack you.  Very
effective in slowing people down.  Trust me.

A further thought on martial arts is that damage should be related to
skil, not strength, as soon as skill is higher.  This reflects the
natural progression people make from strength based techniques to
skill based ones as they become more proficient.

ual1@cornell.edu

"The coward dies a thousand deaths, the brave man but once... either
way, he's dead."



--------------------------


Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1993 18:52:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Andrew David Weiland <aw1s+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts in Shadowrun II
References: <9304270321.AA02641@mailbox.kpc.com>

>Remember our discussions a couple of years ago on Martial Arts
>in Shadowrun?  Nope, I don't either.  But I have been thinking
>some more about it because I have a new character with Aikido.

I'm running a martial artist, so I've been thinking about some new rules
as well.  The best way to run it might be to make every martial arts
style a concentration of the Unarmed Combat skill.  Each style could
include a number of separate manuevers as well, which are all
specializations.

The basic (Str)M Stun attack is a manuever called a strike.  It may not
be possible to specialize in the strike, since it's so general.  You may
not want to have all styles include a strike manuever since some styles,
like Aikido, don't concentrate on offense.  So what can you do?  Use the
root (Unarmed Combat) skill, or see below.

>Throw: One damage level less but net successes means the target ....
>Hold: One damage level less (or at the attacker's option, two) but ....
>Killing Strike: One damage level less and/or half power, but does physical

All of which would be specializations within a particular style.

>The other part to simulating Aikido is that you can concentrate in it
>for the purposes of defense, so for example you'd have
>Unarmed Combat 3, Aikido 5, and roll 5 dice on defense but only 3 dice
>when attacking.  (More properly, you'd never attack.)

>Comments?

I was thinking that for some manuevers, you'd get a chance to use the
enemy's strength against them.  These types of manuevers could never be
used as attacks, but only in the defense roll.  Damage level is based on
your enemy's Strength level instead of your own (which would allow
martial artists to be very effective against your typical Str 6 samurai).

The next step is to take a bunch of styles, and break them up into
manuevers.  Karate, for instance, might have specializations of Strike
and Killing Strike.  How about some other styles?

-- 
aw1s@andrew.cmu.edu |	Andy Weiland
We should not let ourselves be burnt for our opinions; we
are not that sure of them.  But perhaps for this: that we
may have and change our opinions.



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End of Flashlife
**************************

